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ArosVision development to start soon (I hope)

Last updated on 8 years ago
SamuraiCrow
You've probably heard me ranting on AROS-Exec on how somebody should do an AmigaVision clone. Well, if Chris Handley gets PortablE to support the NList-classes from SourceForge.net for fancy listview and treeview gadgets as part of the std/cGUI runtimes, that's what I'll use.

I've also decided that to keep things simple, I'll model the code-viewer after the syntax of PortablE also. This means that I'll have all of the class libraries of PortablE at my disposal.

I also know that ClusterUK wanted me to try to be able to import scripts from other multimedia sequencers like CanDo for the sake of being able to import many other scripts.

Is there anything anyone wants to suggest before I start?
Allanon
Good! Really good news! This is a great project!
serk118uk
I wonder if cando's source code is about.
.
SamuraiCrow

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serk118uk wrote:

I wonder if cando's source code is about.
.


ClusterUK already talked to them. The source is lost but the file format is still available. I might be able to import CanDo scripts once I get the program working.
M
@SamuraiCrow :

Just to refresh my memory are you talking about this (http://www.richardlagendijk.nl/foto/c...ion_01.jpg) piece of software ?

If so, and just out of curiocity, then why choosing PortabLE ? (nothing against it though) Wouldn't it be easier to use LUA ? AFAIK lua port also supports mui.

just 2 cents

Regards
SamuraiCrow
@magorium

That's the first version of AmigaVision. I've got the second version on my A1200 so it might be a little different. But mine is going to be WAY more expandable.

I want to make it more object-oriented than Lua is. I've had a bad experience with a Lua-based system already. Also, Hollywood uses a Lua-based core though it's syntax is different.

My goal is making something graphical and expandable. If I can use the std/cGUI classes to make the editor and Chris Handley is open to working with the portions that need fixing, it won't be just me working on the project. Also, I'm planning on making this a 1 to 1 mapping of the capabilities of PortablE so that I don't have to write my own compiler.
M

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That's the first version of AmigaVision.


Ah ok. I just remembered the one in the link being distributed with one of my migs (can't remember exactly which one) supplied with a nice manual. Although i grasp(ed) the concept i didn't quite uderstood the implementation.

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I've got the second version on my A1200 so it might be a little different.

I never realized it was being upgraded. I took a look and find a 3.0 version somewhere. I didn't get it to preview something under winuae. Something todo with memory.

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But mine is going to be WAY more expandable.

Yeah if i remembered correctly it was quite a bit lacking in features. So making it more expandable would be a nice feature ;-)


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I want to make it more object-oriented than Lua is.

I indeed noticed some strange OO implementations floating around. I did find some nice ones though.

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I've had a bad experience with a Lua-based system already.

Well, i am not a big lua fan in that respect either.

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My goal is making something graphical and expandable. If I can use the std/cGUI classes to make the editor and Chris Handley is open to working with the portions that need fixing, it won't be just me working on the project. Also, I'm planning on making this a 1 to 1 mapping of the capabilities of PortablE so that I don't have to write my own compiler.

Phew ! that seems quite a task imo. But do i understand correctly you want to develop the editor in portablE as well as generating E-code so you can use the portable compiler ?

Concerning portablE: i did not know it was at such a state already. So chris still upgrades. :nice: Such a shame I get confused everytime I try E, as my background is Pascal based :S

It might be very kewl to see this happening as i find the concept rather interresting and as such could provide endless possibilities.

As of suggestions: make the editor not so confusing as the amigavision one. I got/get quite a bit lost switching from object to object. A nice tree stuffed away somewhere which holds the objects would be nice. In that respect (AV-editor) the gui could use a complete overhaul to make it a bit more to today's standards. But something tells me you already where going to take that into account :)

If i can get AV to work under winuae i could take a closer look to form a better opinion as of suggesting things.

So far i can only wish you good luck with your effort :)

regards
SamuraiCrow

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magorium wrote:

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My goal is making something graphical and expandable. If I can use the std/cGUI classes to make the editor and Chris Handley is open to working with the portions that need fixing, it won't be just me working on the project. Also, I'm planning on making this a 1 to 1 mapping of the capabilities of PortablE so that I don't have to write my own compiler.

Phew ! that seems quite a task imo. But do i understand correctly you want to develop the editor in portablE as well as generating E-code so you can use the portable compiler ?

Concerning portablE: i did not know it was at such a state already. So chris still upgrades. :nice: Such a shame I get confused everytime I try E, as my background is Pascal based :S

It might be very kewl to see this happening as i find the concept rather interresting and as such could provide endless possibilities.

As of suggestions: make the editor not so confusing as the amigavision one. I got/get quite a bit lost switching from object to object. A nice tree stuffed away somewhere which holds the objects would be nice. In that respect (AV-editor) the gui could use a complete overhaul to make it a bit more to today's standards. But something tells me you already where going to take that into account :)

If i can get AV to work under winuae i could take a closer look to form a better opinion as of suggesting things.


One of the reasons I've been using PortablE is that I've been teaching AmigaE on my Sunday afternoons to beginning programmers. I've made a few suggestions to ChrisH about what direction to take PortablE in so I suspect that we see a similar vision for the future of the language. I'm not so sure whether he agrees about a graphical language for non-typists since he said he prefers the type-in model but to each his own.

I want this to be able to integrate well with a MUI-Builder style GUI builder so that in addition to making multimedia presentations and kiosk viewers like the original AmigaVision and Hollywood, it will make native applications as well.
M

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One of the reasons I've been using PortablE is that I've been teaching AmigaE on my Sunday afternoons to beginning programmers.


It is indeed a nice way to get introduced into programming especially when taking into consideration the things they tried to put into my brain :S And imho you are right that E deserves more advertisement.

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I've made a few suggestions to ChrisH about what direction to take PortablE in so I suspect that we see a similar vision for the future of the language.


I actually did take a (quick) look again at the manual. It looks much better now, so thats a good job done by chris. Still some quirks around and something that clashes in my brain, especially when it comes to oop.
It would be interresting to see how things develop.

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I'm not so sure whether he agrees about a graphical language for non-typists since he said he prefers the type-in model but to each his own.


Well to be disrespectfull to chris: it doesn't really matter. imho you could use a graphical approach for almost each programming language although it probably isn't always sensible. And it can be used seperately as long as it produces correct sourcecode.

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I want this to be able to integrate well with a MUI-Builder style GUI builder so that in addition to making multimedia presentations and kiosk viewers like the original AmigaVision and Hollywood, it will make native applications as well.


Ah. That's another thing then indeed. Wow, a complete RAD. That is even more ambitious then i had imagined. That probably would also mean breaking compatability to/with/for other platforms ? Or would you be using the standard E-gui elements ?

regards
SamuraiCrow

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magorium wrote:

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I want this to be able to integrate well with a MUI-Builder style GUI builder so that in addition to making multimedia presentations and kiosk viewers like the original AmigaVision and Hollywood, it will make native applications as well.


Ah. That's another thing then indeed. Wow, a complete RAD. That is even more ambitious then i had imagined. That probably would also mean breaking compatability to/with/for other platforms ? Or would you be using the standard E-gui elements ?


I'll be using the std/cGUI elements from PortablE. I won't directly use Zune or MUI.
SamuraiCrow
As a quick update, I'm focusing my efforts on a wxWidgets-based version of ArosVision called wxVision. It should run on all of the major platforms plus some of the minor ones also.

=edit=
I've posted a screenshot of my current test-build on an AROS-Exec thread.
M
Hi SamuraiCrow,

For reasons beyond me i completly missed your progress-report (both here and on ae) :(.

Nice to see you at least are making progress and i am sorry to hear that things didn't really go the way as was planned. Wrapperwriting always seems a bit unsatisfactory from a programmer's stand of view.

From your experience i gather that you would have to do that wrapping for each and every (new) vision item you want to add ?

And just out of developer's curiousity: weren't you able to use a standard customizable wxwidget to be used for your (specific) vision components ? I really do not have any experience with wxwidget (other then the occasionally application which i install that needs it).

Wish u luck!

p.s. Almost forget to thank you for your (earlier) answers -> Thank You :)
regards,
SamuraiCrow

Quote

magorium wrote:
From your experience i gather that you would have to do that wrapping for each and every (new) vision item you want to add ?

And just out of developer's curiousity: weren't you able to use a standard customizable wxwidget to be used for your (specific) vision components ? I really do not have any experience with wxwidget (other then the occasionally application which i install that needs it).


wxWidgets are wrappers for existing GUI libraries. The wxObject root class just does reference-counting for purposes of deallocating unused objects. It's a substitute for garbage collection.

My hope is that wxVision will be object-oriented enough that the objects (called Modules) will be imported from some other high-level OOP language. Originally I hoped it would be PortablE, but it might be C++ or Java depending how it is written. If you look at the screenshot, the icons along the bottom are the building-blocks of Modules. It is loosely based on C++, Java, and C# as well as PortablE.
M

Quote

SamuraiCrow wrote:
wxWidgets are wrappers for existing GUI libraries. The wxObject root class just does reference-counting for purposes of deallocating unused objects. It's a substitute for garbage collection.


ah yes this clears things up :). I also had a look at the wxwidgets.org website. It seems wxwidgets enounters the same problems lazarus has with it's lcl which is not completly 100% compatible on all platforms.
Add your own set of visual controls and you have all extra work ahead of you indeed :(.

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SamuraiCrow wrote:
My hope is that wxVision will be object-oriented enough that the objects (called Modules) will be imported from some other high-level OOP language.


imho that depends on the programmer ;). I really wish i had more time, it would be an ideal project to tinker with in freepascal :S

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SamuraiCrow wrote:
If you look at the screenshot, the icons along the bottom are the building-blocks of Modules. It is loosely based on C++, Java, and C# as well as PortablE.


Ok, although the screenshot looks very nice (it even reminded me a little of amigavision somehow), you definately lost me somewhere :-)

Did you meant the vision-modules itself are loosly based upon those mentioned languages or that underlying generated code is ?

If i remember correctly: programs made in (amiga)vision produced some kind of basic-dialect code that could easily be transformed ?

I take/took it the initial though was to be able to let your vision-implementation generated user-defineable target-source/code (also (and perhaps) taking into consideration the llvm project) ? I had the impression you wanted to generate E-sourcecode from your vision-builder/editor ?

Or would it just produce a (visionlanguage)source that needs to be interpreted by the target languege (e.g. E, C++ etc.)

Or is it that you just go along, any which way that seems plausible ? :)

I just hope you can keep it interresting enough for yourself to stay interrested in this endevour. Too much satbacks can be a pita...

regards,
SamuraiCrow

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magorium wrote:

Quote

SamuraiCrow wrote:
If you look at the screenshot, the icons along the bottom are the building-blocks of Modules. It is loosely based on C++, Java, and C# as well as PortablE.


Ok, although the screenshot looks very nice (it even reminded me a little of amigavision somehow), you definately lost me somewhere :-)

Did you meant the vision-modules itself are loosly based upon those mentioned languages or that underlying generated code is ?

If i remember correctly: programs made in (amiga)vision produced some kind of basic-dialect code that could easily be transformed ?

I take/took it the initial though was to be able to let your vision-implementation generated user-defineable target-source/code (also (and perhaps) taking into consideration the llvm project) ? I had the impression you wanted to generate E-sourcecode from your vision-builder/editor ?

Or would it just produce a (visionlanguage)source that needs to be interpreted by the target languege (e.g. E, C++ etc.)

Or is it that you just go along, any which way that seems plausible ? :)

I just hope you can keep it interresting enough for yourself to stay interrested in this endevour. Too much satbacks can be a pita...


Originally, in my ArosVision plans, I was going to parse in PortablE as an importer and use PortablE as the exporter as well. Since the cGUI classes in the PortablE runtime libraries are taking a while and some deep thought on ChrisH's part, I've pretty much abandoned the idea of basing it on PortablE now.

wxVision is based more directly on C++ than ArosVision was. My current plan is to make it able to access some C++ libraries. (Mainly using the ones that don't use multiple inheritance for more than just interfaces.) I also have plans to make it operate independently of the text-based parsers altogether (unless you consider XML or JSON as text).

The Clang C++ compiler is designed with a modular library structure. It is the C++ frontend for LLVM and is written entirely in C++. I was planning on using the optimizer and code generators of LLVM for wxVision in the hopes that I could import support from C++ friendly OS functionality.

Now for the big news: I've got a job lined up 400 miles away in South Dakota. I'll be moving this month and part of next. This job is going to be programming in Java so I might just see if some of the ideas that I have will work in Java. That will save me some effort of writing runtime libraries if I try to make a jVision instead. It won't help Aros much though since Aros doesn't have ports of the Java runtime class libraries.

The only reason I would foresee ditching wxVision in favor of a Java-based approach is if the people in charge at my place of employment decide that it would be a good idea to pursue such a visual language as a professional venture. Since they are partners with Oracle and there was an XML-based language being developed at Sun Microsystems before Oracle bought them out. Perhaps there might be some interest.
M
@SamuraiCrow

Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. It explains a lot :) and it is an interresting path :)

My initially thought was commenting on your explanation but:

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Now for the big news: I've got a job lined up 400 miles away in South Dakota. I'll be moving this month and part of next.


Makes it a bit redundant and not so important anymores :)

Congratulations on your new job !! i really hope it works out for you and at the same time are going to have some fun overthere.

Concerning that development i also imagine you have more pressing matters to attend at the moment :D

Although i am a little sad about the possible road the vision project is heading (no aros version that is) i can imagine bigger things for some kind of Vision implemented in java. Then u r talking a whole other ballgame :) But like u said only when bigger balls come into play u would leave wxVision ;)
If it where up to me then i would say: Kick Some Balls !! :D

For now: 400 miles is a long way and i hope all that moving stuff is going to happen without too much hassle for you.

Wish you luck !
SamuraiCrow

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magorium wrote:

@SamuraiCrow
--snip--

For now: 400 miles is a long way and i hope all that moving stuff is going to happen without too much hassle for you.

Wish you luck !


Thanks!
cavemann
@SamuraiCrow
Moving is not fun this time of year. That probably goes double for South Dakota. But a good job in this economy is something to "crow" about. Congrats SamB)
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